smeyers Posted September 29, 2021 Share Posted September 29, 2021 Well, I’d hate to be a Tesla owner about now.😉 Quote According to GuideAutoWeb, the Tesla Model 3 develops a combined output of 480 hp. 283 hp comes from the rear electric motor, while 197 hp comes from the front motor. According to Charoudin's video, the Model 3 should produce around 450 hp from the factory. I’m waiting for a Lucid…… Quote Lucid announced that the Air Dream Edition, the exclusive launch model, will be sold in two versions: the Performance and Range. The Performance will get 1111 horsepower and a claimed sub-2.5-second sprint to 60 mph, while the Range makes 933 horsepower. Already the Tesla’s are considered too fast for Drag Racing as the speeds reached require a roll cage by their rules. Will be interesting to see how SCCA reacts to this new contender in the EV wars, as well as other electric cars in the future. I’m wondering how blending with NA cars in classing will evolve. 😮 Other thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTP-Madmat Posted September 29, 2021 Share Posted September 29, 2021 I can’t say from experience since I have yet to ride in an EV, not even on the street, or have not driven one. But what I can say is the acceleration from the instant torque is impressive. That’s something that even some of the best sports cars can’t achieve. As far as classing there may need to be a separate class for EV as they become more common. I wonder what an old American car with a Tesla or other electric swap could do against the normal cam cars? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Sloan Posted September 30, 2021 Share Posted September 30, 2021 I think the Lucid is more in line with the Model S. That is an even larger heaver car than the model 3. I will be interested to see what the Model 2 ends up being since that will be more the size of a GTI or Focus ST. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Posted October 1, 2021 Share Posted October 1, 2021 (edited) Considering that solo has so many classes, our SEB ought to be able to find a fair spot for almost every EV without splitting all of them out where there will be just a single dominant EV and about 12 obsolete other EVs in a class or 2. ESP for Tesla 3's on 200 TW tires? That's where Brian's 3 would have been running with earlier this year at a Marana event. Shockingly😎 fast Sticking them all in one or 2 "run what ya brung" EV classes is very unfair to the growing solo EV population and would not be very progressive. Solo board has been up to the challenge in the past for classing other extremely high HP factory and modded factory cars. The "unfair advantage" of EV factory software downloads to enhance perf? Bah!, many performance internal combustion cars have software running the shifting, steering response, ABS braking, shocks, cornering balance, and electronic diffs. Is it currently (another pun?) possible to police who has been getting factory SW help on their internal combustion muscle or supercar? or do they even need it, those cars are so well tuned already? Edited October 1, 2021 by Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zuko305 Posted October 1, 2021 Share Posted October 1, 2021 Aren't newer Tesla's SS or ASP per the ruleset? Am I reading that right? Tesla Motors (SS) -Model 3 (all) (2018-21) -Model S, all-wheel drive (2014-2021) -Model Y (all) (2020-21) -Roadster (all) (2008-13) Tesla Model 3 *Limited Prep* (ASP) I AM jealous of 480HP, and even more so of 1111HP or even the measly 993HP, but even more so the immediate torque. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smeyers Posted October 1, 2021 Author Share Posted October 1, 2021 I thought Teslas were removed from SS for being too fast. Some kind of revolt from Corvette and Porsche drivers?😳 Thus EV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zuko305 Posted October 1, 2021 Share Posted October 1, 2021 2 hours ago, smeyers said: I thought Teslas were removed from SS for being too fast. Some kind of revolt from Corvette and Porsche drivers?😳 Thus EV. Well, at Nationals they were in SS, SM, and ASP categories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smeyers Posted October 1, 2021 Author Share Posted October 1, 2021 Well, they didn't win, that's for sure. And still listed in the 2021 rules. Damn rumors......😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Posted October 1, 2021 Share Posted October 1, 2021 (edited) Highest placing Tesla 3 in SS was 26th. Then 10, 11, 13, 15 in the 16 car ASP class. None ran in 18 car SM class. ESP was a little faster then SS: Wong in Camaro won at 111.67 and SS was won at 112.014. ASP was won at 108.89, quite a bit faster than ESP. SM was 106.9 by Todd Kean in a 240 followed by Strelnieks in a GTR. Bear in mind possible inaccuracies comparing class times since the event was spread out over 4 days along with AM vs PM with differing track conditions. Just a guess on my part with a very small sample population, but based upon these National times and what I saw Brian do on what looked like 200 W tires beating Wong's ESP a little at Marana, Tesla 3 ought not to be in SS for sure. I'm inclined to use the Mark Daddio/ Brian Peters level of driving and car prep as the best indicator of true potential for any car. Then, fairest place to put the 3 might be ESP with a special 200 TW tire restriction or ASP on solo-only tires. Given that full street trim weight doesn't appear to come off easily from any EV, I have some doubt that Tesla 3 would be competitive in SM. I guess it could go a lot of different ways to be fair to everyone. It might be possible to still try a EV class just for Tesla 3's and similar EV cars around the 3500 lbs. Tesla street weight, then perhaps still try to spread the not so fast EVs like Bolts and so on where they seem work among the ICE classes. The high HP mid-engine AWD hybrids like the 573/600? in 2020 HP NSX and rumored 650 HP e-ray Corvette hybrid AWD C8 are another interesting classing discussion. There you may have less overall weight along with better braking from a significant rearwards weight bias than any sedan EV while retaining an EV's immense single gear +AWD acceleration. Edited October 1, 2021 by Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smeyers Posted October 1, 2021 Author Share Posted October 1, 2021 SCCA has formed a new National Committee (nine members) to study how to best integrate electric cars and such into Solo Classing. That should prove interesting to see how that shakes out.🤔 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Posted October 1, 2021 Share Posted October 1, 2021 (edited) Agreed, it should be interesting to follow! A special committee of experts is how it should be done. Years ago now, I served on the APAC when a total departure replacement for AP was proposed. It became known as XP. Edited October 1, 2021 by Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd A Posted October 2, 2021 Share Posted October 2, 2021 I'm hoping they will just throw in the towel on the current classing system all together and move to a performance point system like NASA uses. The current system is an expensive nightmare for anyone who actually buys a car with autox in mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smeyers Posted October 2, 2021 Author Share Posted October 2, 2021 +1. “Expensive nightmare”……. Especially true for Street (Stock) Classes, not as much for the spec classes. Personally I see no way for Electric and Gasoline vehicles to fairly co-exist in a competitive environment. NHRA will soon be disallowing some of the faster Teslas due to excessive performance. Certain speeds being reached require a full roll cage and special drivers equipment. How’s 9.6 seconds and 149mph sound for a quarter mile?😳 From a street Tesla?😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Posted October 2, 2021 Share Posted October 2, 2021 (edited) I'm not arguing for any particular solution myself. I won't be trying to convince anybody of anything- those with at true interest should definitely write letters to the SEB once member input is requested. I'm just a little intrigued by all this and am making a few observations so that you might have a better idea of the big picture. Scott, you make a good point on safely aspect regarding 9.6 s 1/4 mile times. But we need to recognize that the big battery EVs aren't the only factory stock vehicles that are Waaay out there in performance-land now. Latest McLaren 720s is 9.9 s 1/4 mile in street trim 2.7 s 0-60. It only weighs 3150 lbs. What does a big battery 9.6 s 1/4 mile Tesla in street trim weigh? 4600 lbs? Kind of a no brainer which would be a lot faster thru a close spaced slalom on the same size tires. Also along the fast ICE lines... The e-Ray AWD 650 HP C8 Corvette is not intended to be the top of the line C8. The Corvette C-8 Twin Turbo is predicted to be 900 HP straight from the factory Not sure I like the idea, but many mfg, apparently Corvette included, say they intend to totally eliminate gas versions of their cars in a few years. Edited October 3, 2021 by Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smeyers Posted October 3, 2021 Author Share Posted October 3, 2021 Well then, all of our current cars would then be shuffled into the new level of "Heritage" car classing that I'm sure SCCA would be happy to create, but we all know that there just aren't enough classes yet.😂😂😂😂😂 (Yes, this was "tongue in cheek".) I'm waiting for the moment when people discover the looming issues for future automotive battery disposals. Rumored to be quite the new challenge.😉 These things might not be as "green" as assumed and projected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 Hear you on that! We seem to have no problem finding new potential ways to pollute ourselves out of existence. Then again, maybe we can recycle the lithium as a pharmaceutical to treat manic depression! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt U Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 Chuck and Scott, I think your both right in the EV classing issue, it’s a bit all over the place. A good argument for EV’s being placed in the normal street categories was Nationals 2019. A Tesla Model 3 won in B street just beating Daddio by 0.070 seconds after both days, so the Model 3 in BS makes sense in that argument. Then at the ProSolo Finale, same drivers and cars are separated by 1.367 seconds. If that Tesla was in either SS or AS, David (Tesla) would have finished 6th in either. So in this case, the Tesla is a wringer in BS but may not be top level competitive in AS or SS. All in, I think an EV class, wherever that eventually leads was the best solution within the SCCA classing boundary for now. I believe that is due to the only real EV people are currently considering is the Model 3 Performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwharnish Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 (edited) 17 hours ago, smeyers said: +1. “Expensive nightmare”……. Especially true for Street (Stock) Classes, not as much for the spec classes. Personally I see no way for Electric and Gasoline vehicles to fairly co-exist in a competitive environment. NHRA will soon be disallowing some of the faster Teslas due to excessive performance. Certain speeds being reached require a full roll cage and special drivers equipment. How’s 9.6 seconds and 149mph sound for a quarter mile?😳 From a street Tesla?😉 The top 1/4 mile time for a Tesla Plaid is 9.08 @ 154mph. These cars are heavy and only the Model 3's have made an impact in Solo. But yes, no easy way to class the EV's in ICE stock classes. But EV's look to be the future and SCCA and other racing venues need to find a way deal with them. And about may not be as green as assumed, compared to ICE, EV's are very Green. I charge my M3 at home for free, which has solar panels. Granted manufacturing of the batteries with the rare earth elements, create some un Green issues, but everything we manufacture creates un Green issues. Lithium batteries disposal companies are few at this time, and will be a big challenge, when replacements or disposals start to become needed. But the Lithium batteries in these cars are lasting 10+ years, so the lifespan compared to lead-acid is far greater. Great opportunity for an upcoming needed service. Lithium as a pharmaceutical, not widely used or accepted. Besides those batteries are hard to swallow. I'm sold on EV's, sure they don't sound cool, but that instant torque is addicting. Edited October 3, 2021 by jwharnish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 Ah Jim, you lament lack of ICE music? An appealing combination on traction, overall weight , ICE sound, and no torque holes are the AWD Hybrids like the NSX or upcoming Corvette e-ray. My only point here is that there is a bigger classing issue looming than just "what do we do with the Plaids, 3's, and dog FWD Bolts, Volts, etc.?" Another important item of real concern that Scott brought up is the no-cage hot rod issue. Again -its not just Tesla Plaid's that are getting thrown off NHRA and other strips for being too fast w/out full cages. We see lots of U-tube videos that are filmed on non-NHRA strips now. The Drags Times dude with his stock appearing no-cage cars like this: (1) FIRST 765LT in the 8's * McLaren 765LT 1/4 Mile Drag Race Testing - Bing video I haven't followed this gal Emelia Harford's every U-tube episode, but I believe she was tossed at at least one event for being too fast w/out a cage. She evidently has a stock RWD C8 with upgraded engine internals and twin turbos which exceeds 1000 HP now. 9.36 s 1/4 mile time on a 100 degree day. Possibly not too far off from the upcoming Corvette factory stock 900 HP. Here is another factory hot rod from Rimac with absolutely no aftermarket tuning mods that runs in the 8's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwharnish Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 Chuck, your are 100% correct on the hot rod issue. Just because you can afford a Tesla doesn't mean you can deal with all the speed the car generate. These cars are now able to beat full on drag cars, and to have some 20 year old you tuber buy one to impress all their followers by scaring the crap out of everyone, is scary. I remember the 60's when big block cars were a handful, and they were 12 second cars on skinny tires. Now we have 9 second street cars. Interesting times for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smeyers Posted October 3, 2021 Author Share Posted October 3, 2021 (edited) If this trend continues, I’m sensing some Government regulations on the horizon…..😬🤔 Back in my youth, 0-60 in under TEN SECONDS was considered the golden "fast" standard. (But that was if your horse didn't throw off a shoe).😉😂😆 Edited October 3, 2021 by smeyers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt U Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 (edited) I’m going to paraphrase what Jay Leno said about the EV versus the ICE cars. Our main transportation will eventually be some form of EV, but our weekend hot rods and toys will be ICE cars from the years past. I think in 10-20 years the SCCA classes will be split between EV an ICE/hybrid cars, the NSX is already winning in SS. Meanwhile, the CAM classes will expand to account for ICE cars that were phased out of competitiveness. Don’t worry Monte Carlo owners, there will still be a class for you. Edited October 3, 2021 by Matt U Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwharnish Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 10 hours ago, smeyers said: If this trend continues, I’m sensing some Government regulations on the horizon…..😬🤔 Back in my youth, 0-60 in under TEN SECONDS was considered the golden "fast" standard. (But that was if your horse didn't throw off a shoe).😉😂😆 Scott; I feel you might be correct with forthcoming Government regulations on the speed issue. All we need is to have some street racers in these beast hitting 100mph in 1 street block, then wrecking into some old man in his Prius. A couple of those would get all kinds of headlines, and then some Politician would blame Musk and all the left wingers for unleashing these street killing machines. Of course that would all be backed by the Koch brothers and big oil to again try to kill the EV. Until that day, which site do I go to order a new Plaid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aweZome28 Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 9 hours ago, jwharnish said: Until that day, which site do I go to order a new Plaid? Check out L.L.Bean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeRogers Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 (edited) 😂 Edited October 5, 2021 by MikeRogers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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