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First set of 200TW tires, A052 or RE71-RS?


David 2

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I'm about to order my first set of 200TW tires.  And, I'd like a little feedback from the group on if the A052's or RE71-RS are better at our local AMP solo track?  From my reading, it sounds like the  Bridgestones like to be a little warmer than the Yoko's.  But, at a lot of our sessions it is not "hot" out.  And, I'll be driving without a co-driver with a 245/40/17 on a light little GR86 so I will not be able to make much heat in the tires.   So, does that tip me towards the Yoko A052's, or is our surface warm enough or does it otherwise like the RE71-RS's better than the Yoko's?  Any advise would be appreciated.  I'm looking forward to trying out the new setup in a couple weeks.

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This is a very complicated and even *personal* decision. Driving style and preferences too comes into play. Tire feedback is also important.

Read as many articles as you can find on the 200TW tires. Pay the most attention to test cars used most similar to yours.

Note that this is Arizona, and many months are not lacking a source of heat. Think of all the water you’ll save the planet by NOT having to water your tires between runs!  😂

I seem to recall you’re kind of new. This will not be your only set of tires. As you wear through your first set, try something different your second set.

You’ll find what fits you.😎

 

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Thank you for your thoughts.  Yes, I'm very new.  Only three events and each was with a different car.  I finally pick up "my" car today.  Being so green, I'll not be able to maximize/feel/understand the subtle negatives and benefits from each of the tires.  So, yes, maybe I should just pick one of them and expect that with time I'll likely try others.  There will be plenty of time to read and research before getting that next set or even before being a good driver.

 

 

Edited by David 2
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Given that's the case, buy whatever's cheapest now, which is the Falken by a mile. There's also wear to consider. A052s are known to wear out relatively quickly, especially on heavier cars without optimal camber. Matt Underhill and I got A052s to last forever on a STX BRZ, but not so much on other cars. I have Falken RT660s on my Corvette. They're wearing out from heat cycling before they run out of tread. 

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If they have your size (which I believe they do given you drive something that doesn't take huge boy sizes), the V730 from Kumho is another good option. Just as fast as the RT660's, wear like an iron, and are even cheaper than the Falken's. They also do not suffer from the butt-hole pucker cold tire syndrome that the Falkens have on their first lap from temps under 60 degree's, but that is only a concern for 3 or so months out of the year out here.

Edited by freakin_elrod
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Gotta say, I've run RT615s, RE71Rs (not the RE71RS'), and the V730s.

I like the V730s the best, but they're a bit narrower than the old 71s, so I think I lose a little time, but they seem to tolerate heat a little better.

Since I tend to over drive a course (thus generate heat), they seem to keep my times more consistent.  

I'll probably get them in 225s next (on 205s now).

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Thanks all.  It seems for my first set I'll try the RT660's for this summer given that warm weather is in front of us and not behind us.  I may end up picking some A052's or RE71Rs for the cold days if it seems I am losing traction/time on the cold days.  See you all on the 4th/5th!!

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20 hours ago, David 2 said:

Thanks all.  It seems for my first set I'll try the RT660's for this summer given that warm weather is in front of us and not behind us.  I may end up picking some A052's or RE71Rs for the cold days if it seems I am losing traction/time on the cold days.  See you all on the 4th/5th!!

Nankangs are about .5 to .75 second off the pace (at least in CAM cars) versus AO52's in a similar platform. PASR doesn't run summer events so your heat will be here for Sept - Oct., perhaps into Nov and typically March & April. There's always a spray tank too. If you plan on running down for Tucson events during the summer, the RT660's would be your best bet. 

I ran the RT660 on AS platform for about a 150-160 runs, they heat cycled out well before they lost any tread. 

Lets face it though - you don't have enough experience to tell the difference between AO52's, RT660's, RE71RS, or Nankangs. Anyone of these tires/manufacturers will exceed your ability at this point. Your first couple years try all different sets until you find a tire that provides you the feedback you want based on the set-up.

Edited by Zuko305
Grammatical
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A long time ago I started autocrossing around the same time as this other guy. We both started on crappy all seasons. The battle between us to win the novice category for the season was really close, so he ran out and bought some good tires. First time out on them, he beat me by a lot. Second time out, he beat me by a little. Third time, I was slightly ahead(!).

The problem is that good tires mask mistakes. You can develop all kinds of bad habits, and the good tires will make those habits feel "fast," but they won't be. Until you have the fundamentals down, your talent will greatly benefit from a tire that makes it very clear when you make a mistake.

I wanna temper this advice: you are (hopefully? probably?) here to have fun. So make sure what you choose sounds fun! For me, levelling up my talent was "fun" and a huge reason why I got invested in the sport; I was willing to grind a few seasons on crappy tires to learn more. That doesn't have to be you if you just wanna have fun with cars.

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That was my approach.  I think I did a couple seasons on BFG SC2s (340tw or something like that) as I decided I wanted to try and be competitive, then RT615s.  Learned best on those, I think.  I would've done another season on those, but the RE71s were a smokin' price.

I thought I'd learned enough to go with 225s once the 71s gave out,  but I'd get beat in my STR car by 1-2 seconds by a couple of the really fast E stock guys, so I stayed with 205s when I got the V730s.

I think when I can beat the E stock guys by 1-2 sec, I'll be ready for 225s and maybe a set of 15x9s.

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On 2/22/2023 at 5:41 PM, Zuko305 said:

Nankangs are about .5 to .75 second off the pace (at least in CAM cars) versus AO52's in a similar platform. PASR doesn't run summer events so your heat will be here for Sept - Oct., perhaps into Nov and typically March & April. There's always a spray tank too. If you plan on running down for Tucson events during the summer, the RT660's would be your best bet. 

I ran the RT660 on AS platform for about a 150-160 runs, they heat cycled out well before they lost any tread. 

Lets face it though - you don't have enough experience to tell the difference between AO52's, RT660's, RE71RS, or Nankangs. Anyone of these tires/manufacturers will exceed your ability at this point. Your first couple years try all different sets until you find a tire that provides you the feedback you want based on the set-up.

Great answer.   Yes I've got lots of time before I can learn to extract the minor benefit one tire over the other for my car and driving style (or no style).  Essentially that is why I started with the RT660's.  They are cheap, they are better than me, and yes, I plan on running in Tucson this summer.  And, I enjoy the process of learning so even if I love the RT660's, I'll try one of the others next time to learn about it.  I think the RT660's are a great place to start the process.

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On 2/23/2023 at 2:09 PM, Manfred said:

A long time ago I started autocrossing around the same time as this other guy. We both started on crappy all seasons. The battle between us to win the novice category for the season was really close, so he ran out and bought some good tires. First time out on them, he beat me by a lot. Second time out, he beat me by a little. Third time, I was slightly ahead(!).

The problem is that good tires mask mistakes. You can develop all kinds of bad habits, and the good tires will make those habits feel "fast," but they won't be. Until you have the fundamentals down, your talent will greatly benefit from a tire that makes it very clear when you make a mistake.

I wanna temper this advice: you are (hopefully? probably?) here to have fun. So make sure what you choose sounds fun! For me, levelling up my talent was "fun" and a huge reason why I got invested in the sport; I was willing to grind a few seasons on crappy tires to learn more. That doesn't have to be you if you just wanna have fun with cars.

Hmm, that may be very wise advice on learning on street tires.  That logic is why I elected to go with a GR86 to learn on a lower power car as I knew I would be forever frustrated if I tried to learn on a high HP car.  But, I didn't extend that logic as far as you did and stick with low grip tires., good idea.   At this point, however, I am heading down the path of new tires.  They are now sitting in my garage.  I admit I will not be able to resist the temptation to use them even if I may develop as a driver faster without them.   I'll just add this to the list of things I do that may not make logical sene.  Another thought along these lines is I have a buddy from high school that was a moderatly successful competive pro-driver on road coarses back in his day.  He suggested I learn to drive in karts.  He said many of the principals I need to learn are available on that platform and I can easily get a lot more seat time in karts.  He didn't autocross but I suspect his words are true.  That is one bit of advice I still have an opportunity to use, though haven't yet........

Edited by David 2
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On 2/23/2023 at 2:09 PM, Manfred said:

A long time ago I started autocrossing around the same time as this other guy. We both started on crappy all seasons. The battle between us to win the novice category for the season was really close, so he ran out and bought some good tires. First time out on them, he beat me by a lot. Second time out, he beat me by a little. Third time, I was slightly ahead(!).

The problem is that good tires mask mistakes. You can develop all kinds of bad habits, and the good tires will make those habits feel "fast," but they won't be. Until you have the fundamentals down, your talent will greatly benefit from a tire that makes it very clear when you make a mistake.

I wanna temper this advice: you are (hopefully? probably?) here to have fun. So make sure what you choose sounds fun! For me, levelling up my talent was "fun" and a huge reason why I got invested in the sport; I was willing to grind a few seasons on crappy tires to learn more. That doesn't have to be you if you just wanna have fun with cars.

My learning story was similar only I was in a woefully horrible car and was picking up take off A7s (Hoosier Slicks) to try to be fast on my first year.  Several veterans gave me the same advice, sticky tires just help bed in the bad habits I was learning.  My second season I switched to a traditional 200 TW tire (Falken 615s at the time, decent but nowhere near as fast as the Rivals) and devoted that year to just driving the car, hitting schools and honing my craft.  By the end of that season I was running with the guys on the fast tires and even brought home a third place trophy from Nationals the first time the CAM class ran there...  On slower tires than everyone else was running.      

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Okay so here’s my $0.02, but later in the post. Chris Groppi had mentioned my name and the A052’s on an STX BRZ. The last set of tires on it started to actually heat cycle out a bit. The front to back balance stated to degrade after about 90 runs and the setup really needed a lot of changes to regain some balance. The tires were not corded but they were on the wear bars. Please keep in mind that when I can string a run together, like the last event, I happened to finish 4th just behind Rouse and Peters while running in A group. I say that to emphasize that I am really pushing the tires hard the whole run, every run. The car is running a ton of camber, way more than stock so I can keep the tires happy. So there is my post on A052 STX tire life. 
 

Here’s the option list that I see for you @David 2.

1) Get a good set of 300-340 tread wear tires like the Continental extreme contact or Michelin Pilot 4s and learn how to drive those fast. I do agree with @Manfred, proper 200TW tires will mask and compensate for bad habits especially on a lighter weight car. Have someone that is properly fast set a time in your car like 1 or 2 times a year on those tires so you have a gauge on what a fast time on those tires can be. You will spend years getting the gas/braking/turning balance right and consistent, that’s why I say a good set of tires. If your on some sweet set of Arizonian tires, don’t laugh they are a discount tire special, the balance of the car and the car control habits won’t translate very well.

2) Get 200 TW tires that are symmetric. So 660rt or Direzza ZIII are your choices. Don’t get the Hankook ones, they heat cycle out way too fast out here. You will want to be able to flip them on the wheels to get more runs out of them. It really doesn’t matter which ones, they are both way more capable than you will know what to do with. The general favorite is the 660rt’s, plus a lot of people out here run them. Oh yeah you’ll get all the exciting “I’m a serious race car” vibes like more road noise and every little pebble getting hurtled at your paint and fenders at the full highway speed. 
 

For those that say you’ll get way more runs out of the 340TW tires, well technically yeah, but you’re still going to want to budget for about a set of tires per year if your running every event and TO’s, we all like that big round brake when we are learning (steering wheel).
 

Well my 11 month old says rant/advise over. Chew on this post for a second time and remember that the game of cone dodging is about the learning, not the tools. 

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17 hours ago, Matt U said:

Okay so here’s my $0.02, but later in the post. Chris Groppi had mentioned my name and the A052’s on an STX BRZ. The last set of tires on it started to actually heat cycle out a bit. The front to back balance stated to degrade after about 90 runs and the setup really needed a lot of changes to regain some balance. The tires were not corded but they were on the wear bars. Please keep in mind that when I can string a run together, like the last event, I happened to finish 4th just behind Rouse and Peters while running in A group. I say that to emphasize that I am really pushing the tires hard the whole run, every run. The car is running a ton of camber, way more than stock so I can keep the tires happy. So there is my post on A052 STX tire life. 
 

Here’s the option list that I see for you @David 2.

1) Get a good set of 300-340 tread wear tires like the Continental extreme contact or Michelin Pilot 4s and learn how to drive those fast. I do agree with @Manfred, proper 200TW tires will mask and compensate for bad habits especially on a lighter weight car. Have someone that is properly fast set a time in your car like 1 or 2 times a year on those tires so you have a gauge on what a fast time on those tires can be. You will spend years getting the gas/braking/turning balance right and consistent, that’s why I say a good set of tires. If your on some sweet set of Arizonian tires, don’t laugh they are a discount tire special, the balance of the car and the car control habits won’t translate very well.

2) Get 200 TW tires that are symmetric. So 660rt or Direzza ZIII are your choices. Don’t get the Hankook ones, they heat cycle out way too fast out here. You will want to be able to flip them on the wheels to get more runs out of them. It really doesn’t matter which ones, they are both way more capable than you will know what to do with. The general favorite is the 660rt’s, plus a lot of people out here run them. Oh yeah you’ll get all the exciting “I’m a serious race car” vibes like more road noise and every little pebble getting hurtled at your paint and fenders at the full highway speed. 
 

For those that say you’ll get way more runs out of the 340TW tires, well technically yeah, but you’re still going to want to budget for about a set of tires per year if your running every event and TO’s, we all like that big round brake when we are learning (steering wheel).
 

Well my 11 month old says rant/advise over. Chew on this post for a second time and remember that the game of cone dodging is about the learning, not the tools. 

Well, said.  There is starting to be a theme in these responses.  It is starting to sink in.  The "not the tools" comment is particularly powerful.  Thank you for your time and advice.

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On 3/1/2023 at 5:51 PM, smeyers said:

Even Brian Peters wasn’t built in a day.😉. He paid his dues over the years. 
Take your time and enjoy the experience. You’ll have a number of learning “AHA!” moments as you evolve. Those are fun.

Looking forward to them.

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@David 2 so I know that Justin Metz has been running his GR86 with the factory Michelin Pilot Sport 4 tires. He hasn't been out this year so far, but he is a pretty good driver to compare apples to apples. Last year his overall PAX was 928,949,932. For the last event here is a breakdown of PAX score to DS raw time for comparison.

850 => 47.765

900 => 45.111

950 => 42.737

1000 => 40.600

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48 minutes ago, Matt U said:

@David 2 so I know that Justin Metz has been running his GR86 with the factory Michelin Pilot Sport 4 tires. He hasn't been out this year so far, but he is a pretty good driver to compare apples to apples. Last year his overall PAX was 928,949,932. For the last event here is a breakdown of PAX score to DS raw time for comparison.

850 => 47.765

900 => 45.111

950 => 42.737

1000 => 40.600

That is pretty quick.  I've been in a rented car since I started AX.  I think that helped me learn about some of the different effects faced out there.  It was substantial understeer on the front wheel drive Altima, massive oversteer on the wet track with a Hemi Challenger, and fairly balanced in a rental GR86 on pretty tired Michelin Primacies.  I'm looking forward to finally being able to drive my own car on decent tires this weekend.  Seeing how far short I come up to the above PAX numbers, and others in DS, will be humbling, I'm sure.  This weekend will be my first real guage of the substantial amount of progress I need to make.    

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