Solo course for Oct 15, 2023

[bill]

Here is the course for Oct 15, 2023.  As always modifications my be made at the time of steup due to visibility, safety and flow issues.  

PASR at AMP Oct. 15 '23 (WOG).pdf

[Mark111R]

As a former course chief at two different regions, my opinion on "optional" slaloms is that experienced drivers will know there's only one correct way to drive it - but novices will be confused... and confusing novices serves no one.

[David 2]

9 hours ago, Mark111R said:

As a former course chief at two different regions, my opinion on "optional" slaloms is that experienced drivers will know there's only one correct way to drive it - but novices will be confused... and confusing novices serves no one.

Looking at the course map, I don't think any novice will be wrong on the best way to drive the optional slalom I see on this course map.  But, I suppose there is always that one person....  In the course designer's defense, i will say the exercise of learning the right and wrong way to drive a course is part of the process of becoming a better driver.  I recall not too long ago another optional slalom and having some  internal debate about the best way to run it.  I considered the pros and cons for some time about the tradeoffs.  With a little hindsight and some more experience I now know there was only one fast way to drive it.  But, the process of thinking about it at that time was helpful.  To a less experienced driver an optional slalom makes one think about what can be done with a car, learning what can't be done with a car (pretty important lesson to be learned), getting perspective on distance versus speed, opening up and asking questions of more experienced drivers, developing theories and testing them, and ultimately learning how to be a better driver.  In my view, optional slaloms are a great learning experience for novice drivers.  Will it allow for the novice to drive quick times, well, maybe not for some on that particular day, but it may well improve their times in the next month by learning and experiencing the lessons an optional slalom can teach. 

[Nokones]

Novices are suppose to be confused because they are still learning how to take an optional slalom. The experienced drivers are not confused because they learned how to take an optional slalom from their confused years. That is the object of this sport, learning how to drive a particular element in a series of elements leading up to an element and exiting the subject element.

Believe me, an optional slalom on paper DMS until you walk it several times and drive it. That is why you get multiple runs so you can figure out the best and fastest way to drive the course. Some optional slaloms are a given on how to enter and exit and some are deceiving as all get out. Don't stress it, make it fun, it's your choice.

If you're a novice, don't worry about the trophy run that your overdriving for because it's not your time yet. It will happen in do time, if your learn. And remember, a perfect run will never happen, but a winning run is a run that a driver makes the minimum number of mistakes than the other drivers. And remember, mistakes are not mistakes during your novice years, they are learning points. Mistakes are for the extremely experienced drivers.

If you don't want to learn something new at every event, then maybe road racing would be your sport. That is what makes this sport interesting you can learn a new driving maneuver at every event even with almost 40 years of autocrossing experience.

--

Kenneth Allan Mitchell

nokones@kenmitchell.com

89 Corvette CAM-S

13 Corvette Grand Sport AS

15 Porsche Cayman GTS AS

Edited October 4, 2023 by Nokones

[ziemsj01]

As a "less experienced" driver, I totally agree with David and Nokones. I rather enjoyed figuring out which way worked best when we had an optional slalom before. All part of the learning process. 

[smeyers]

Regarding this question of optional slaloms, I too have served as Course Designer more than once over the years, and it was very common to have optional slaloms. Even after some events the drama/discussion would often continue over which direction was best.

And often, the top drivers would each have excellent times even though they chose different directions. Go figure.🤔

Really adds some decision-making and thinking to an event. Hurrah to the course designer……”Bring it!” 👍😎😉

Edited October 4, 2023 by smeyers

[Mark111R]

Ok, guess I'm in the minority here. 

I've always subscribed to the philosophy that in autocross, everyone should drive the same course. Adding an optional element is an unnecessary gimmick that will more often catch the novices rather than the experienced - and making it harder for novices is not something I like to do. There is plenty to learn in driving an element properly, there is nothing additional learned in having to choose which side to enter a slalom. 

There are plenty of ways to encourage decision making and choices into a course without making elements optional. The last event's course was a good example of this. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Mark111R

[smeyers]

For what it’s worth, at the last event at AMP, I am very sure I didn’t drive the same exact course or line as Brian Peters. Or even you.

The optional slalom is not a “gimmick”, it is the same as how to take an open sweeper, or if you early apex or late apex any given corner. If you are FWD or RWD or even 4WD your lines will vary. Or should. Any course is chock full of many variables.

Too bad you didn’t grow up around here. Then you’d know what an “Arizona Clump” was. And how to drive it. 😉 We don’t use those much anymore, but if we ever do…… I’m ready!😎😂

So from the map only, would you go left or right into this optional slalom? Then, after walking the course after it’s been set up, see if your choice changes. It very well could, depending on course setup.💁‍♂️

Edited October 5, 2023 by smeyers

[Zuko305]

2 hours ago, smeyers said:

Too bad you didn’t grow up around here. Then you’d know what an “Arizona Clump” was…

What is an “Arizona Clump?”

[smeyers]

I wondered if anyone would ask. Hasn’t been used for many years, but was a common element here for a long time. Took real technique.

It was a simple, basic 180 degree turnaround at the end of a section, sending cars back that same segment. Good way to use space and add length on the smaller lots available many years.

Usually required a downshift to first. That has fallen out of favor with the larger lots. Watching all of the failed efforts when people tried to find the “fast way” around it was ……interesting. There was no “fast” way. It was a…. 180.😂

Maybe time for a comeback?😉😎

[David 2]

8 minutes ago, smeyers said:

I wondered if anyone would ask. Hasn’t been used for many years, but was a common element here for a long time. Took real technique.

It was a simple, basic 180 degree turnaround at the end of a section, sending cars back that same segment. Good way to use space and add length on the smaller lots available many years.

Usually required a downshift to first. That has fallen out of favor with the larger lots. Watching all of the failed efforts when people tried to find the “fast way” around it was ……interesting. There was no “fast” way. It was a…. 180.😂

Maybe time for a comeback?😉😎

I'm game to try it!!  Though, it doesn't sound like it would be my favorite element.   I've seen some videos of people trying different ways to do that fast.  There are a few theories but I suspect it depends on the car.  

[SSLance]

That would be a hard no...at least from all the CAM drivers I'm most certain!!  😄  

[Zuko305]

11 hours ago, smeyers said:

I wondered if anyone would ask. Hasn’t been used for many years, but was a common element here for a long time. Took real technique.

It was a simple, basic 180 degree turnaround at the end of a section, sending cars back that same segment. Good way to use space and add length on the smaller lots available many years.

Usually required a downshift to first. That has fallen out of favor with the larger lots. Watching all of the failed efforts when people tried to find the “fast way” around it was ……interesting. There was no “fast” way. It was a…. 180.😂

Maybe time for a comeback?😉😎

There was a course years ago at BDI hosted by SV which had a pivot, nearly identical to what you describe as an “Arizona Clump.” My first attempt was dismal at best annd had to use reverse! By the last couple of attempts, slow was the best approach. It certainly was an equalizer in the field and a unique & enjoyable element. 

[Nokones]

7 hours ago, SSLance said:

That would be a hard no...at least from all the CAM drivers I'm most certain!!  😄  

What Lance said, and $%#& NO!. Yes, that is a certain, even if I'm driving my P-Car.

Kenny Mitchell

nokones@kenmitchell.com

Sun City West, AZ

89 Corvette - CAM-S

13 Corvette Grand Sport - AS

15 Porsche Cayman GTS - AS

[smeyers]

Some surprising and interesting responses to the possible inclusion of a “hairpin” corner in local autocross courses. AKA, “Arizona Clump”. The full gamut of retorts. All the way from “Over my dead body”, to “Sounds interesting and a challenge, I’d like to try it”.😎

Here is the iconic Monaco Grand Prix “Grand Hotel Hairpin” corner, one of many in Formula One racing. AKA, a 180 degree corner. 😳

So if these highly skilled and accomplished drivers find this element a fitting and common event challenge, should not we accept that challenge too? They have mastered the techniques necessary to handle this well. So shouldn’t we?😉

Ponder that perspective.👍

[David 2]

3 hours ago, smeyers said:

Some surprising and interesting responses to the possible inclusion of a “hairpin” corner in local autocross courses. AKA, “Arizona Clump”. The full gamut of retorts. All the way from “Over my dead body”, to “Sounds interesting and a challenge, I’d like to try it”.😎

Here is the iconic Monaco Grand Prix “Grand Hotel Hairpin” corner, one of many in Formula One racing. AKA, a 180 degree corner. 😳

So if these highly skilled and accomplished drivers find this element a fitting and common event challenge, should not we accept that challenge too? They have mastered the techniques necessary to handle this well. So shouldn’t we?😉

Ponder that perspective.👍

That pic has a solo driver.  But that Manaco race is wheel to wheel.  Try that turn when you are doing battle with another driver.....bad things can happen, quickly.  Those drivers have *alls of steel.  Still, driving a race car, even a stock class one, no matter the course, it is tons of fun no matter what the devious course designer throws at us.  Sometimes my car isn't the best for a course, but, that's ok.  I just compete against my class on those occasions.  I am really looking forward to the 15th to see the new course.  Hopefully, maybe, I can tame my overdriving instincts..........but it isn't likely.

Edited October 6, 2023 by David 2

[Mark111R]

On 10/4/2023 at 5:44 PM, smeyers said:

For what it’s worth, at the last event at AMP, I am very sure I didn’t drive the same exact course or line as Brian Peters. Or even you.

The optional slalom is not a “gimmick”, it is the same as how to take an open sweeper, or if you early apex or late apex any given corner. If you are FWD or RWD or even 4WD your lines will vary. Or should. Any course is chock full of many variables.

An optional slalom is not the same as an open sweeper. In an open sweeper, everyone is driving the same course. An optional slalom is essentially two courses - with a small change. 

Optional elements are basically this 

 

[SSLance]

I have experienced optional slaloms where one direction .ight benefit one driving style or car choice and the direction might favor a different driving style or car.  Not always the case for sure but so etimes it's more about what is comfortable vs what may be considered the faster line.  

[Zuko305]

The experienced watching new drivers with optional slaloms;

[Nokones]

Is that a picture of Brian Miller?

[smeyers]

😂

Maybe. I want to know which was he’ll choose for the evil optional slalom. If Brian likes it, I like it.👍

[mikej]

If the course is setup as drawn with the dual cones...

the less likely path might be "smoother" especially with high HP rear-wheel cars!

I'm sure I'll be trying both ways... as I always seem to have a bit too much right pedal 🥴

[smeyers]

That Cam Crowd always takes the most interesting lines around the course. That’s why they’re so much fun to watch.👍😎😂

[morbid]

There was a course back at Exponent Failure Analysis that had a hairpin to the left (like ~22°).  I had a 2000 Mercury Cougar (car I started autocrossing with) and it had no ABS, and the flatspots from my panic braking made the long drive home interesting.

I've never driven a car that liked downshifting back to 1st, but I'm all for unique courses!

For the option slaloms, some have an obvious trade off and some *seem* like there's only 1 good path.  There would be times I'd be a course worker and see someone fly through the "wrong" path and have a much faster time than me.  So I think option slaloms are neat because there can be subtle course and route details that I keep having to think about and test out.