Maybe We Need Large Car Numbers?

[Mark111R]

3 minutes ago, smeyers said:

Sid, what color should those numbers be 🤔? And two sets, right, one magnetic and one “Corvette”?😉 How would those be stored?

Asking for a friend….😎

The SCCA rule book specifies contrasting colors and minimum sizes for numbers and class letters. You can throw magnet numbers on the floor or trunk. You can store static cling numbers in a plastic notepad holder. 

 

1 minute ago, smeyers said:

Chris M……regarding buying our own numbers……right now we are using grid numbers as car numbers, so please extrapolate that into how individual numbers would be used for scoring and grid?

BTW, I still have my magnetics from when our Region 25 years ago tried assigning individual numbers to drivers. I know what numbers I want…😉

Timing & Scoring enters the car class and number based on what's on the car. You can see the cars in line at grid. At typical events at other regions, your computer worker can see the cars going to the line and queue the cars visually without relying on the starter to clog the radio calling out cars by grid spot based on a small piece of paper on the windshield. Numbers on the car is easier.

Regarding grid numbers, it no longer matters where cars grid. They can grid wherever they want in their group (unless two-driver car) because T&S will use the number on their car. 

 

3 minutes ago, smeyers said:

Want shade? Bring an umbrella. We do.

Well that's unreasonable. How can you ask people to bring umbrellas if we can't ask people to bring numbers?

[Bob B.]

4 hours ago, smeyers said:

... The Solo Safety Stewards monitor the launch times between cars to ensure adequate and safe cone replacement times.

This is typically 25 seconds...
 

 

This is important (though not germane to numbers) - if I may make the suggestion that in the drivers meeting, or at least when assigning the starter position, it be mentioned that the starter should pay attention to the relationship of downed cones near the start and how long it takes the course worker to reset the cone before sending the next car.

I was fortunate that I wasn't run over after assuming the starter was paying attention to such things, and he wasn't.

As in boxing, "protect yourself at all times" when on the course.

As to numbers, I picked up a set with the intention of running in San Diego (never did make it out), but did use them when I went to Cal Club (once, then their "big course" was shuttered, too... ugh).  And I picked up three, since a 3 digit number was a requirement for newbies.  Gives a bit of flexibility to get a number not already taken, and, everybody likes numbers on their "race car" anyway!

However, the clubs are run by volunteers, and it's all extra admin work, so as cool as numbers are, it has to be easy to set up and easier still to maintain.  CalClub has a sheet they carry over year to year, and they've somehow tied it to motorsport reg.  $25 bucks for a number, so hopefully it not only covers the motorsport reg fee but also provides a little extra revenue for the club.

Haven't been to Phx in a while, but when I've been there in the past, it's usually functioned pretty well, no numbers needed.  

My 2 cents, which in these inflationary times are worth less than they usually are.

Cheers!

[freakin_elrod]

30 minutes ago, smeyers said:

Want shade? Bring an umbrella. We do.

Sid, what color should those numbers be 🤔? And two sets, right, one magnetic and one “Corvette”?😉 How would those be stored?

Asking for a friend….😎

Whatever color your heart desires old friend!! Well realistically any color that has good contrast and is easily visible. Our trusty SCCA rule book has all that info for those that are un aware.

Edited September 26, 2023 by freakin_elrod

[CMarkmann]

24 minutes ago, smeyers said:

Chris M……regarding buying our own numbers……right now we are using grid numbers as car numbers, so please extrapolate that into how individual numbers would be used for scoring and grid?

BTW, I still have my magnetics from when our Region 25 years ago tried assigning individual numbers to drivers. I know what numbers I want…😉

Basically what Mark said; grid position no longer matters other than for two driver cars.

Spitballing this since I've been put on the spot:

• Timing is already mostly automated for run order based on pre-fill from registration info. New procedure will have added column (or replaced column since grid position no longer needed) for driver's competition number. Timing worker will need to enter competition numbers through first runs of each group in order to run through each assigned run group's field, and then it will move back to the top as in current practice.
• Reserve existing grid spaces 1-8 (estimate) for 2 driver cars, instruct grid person to send second drivers at pre-determined interval of run group (say... around 14 or 16 like we do now). Make a sign and use green cones to cordon that area off.
• Much less confusion for cone calls since observers and course workers will be calling in car numbers instead of guessing whether that CAM car is a Chevy or a Buick. "Station 4, 1 cone on car 592" vs "1 cone on that blue hatchback"

[smeyers]

32 minutes ago, Mark111R said:

Timing & Scoring enters the car class and number based on what's on the car. You can see the cars in line at grid. At typical events at other regions, your computer worker can see the cars going to the line and queue the cars visually without relying on the starter to clog the radio calling out cars by grid spot based on a small piece of paper on the windshield. Numbers on the car is easier.

Regarding grid numbers, it no longer matters where cars grid. They can grid wherever they want in their group (unless two-driver car) because T&S will use the number on their car. 

Mark, in all seriousness, I’d like you to discuss these ideas with Lance and Jason B. We often do not have experienced people at some key positions. Sounds very simple, what could possibly go wrong?
 
“Would not matter where cars grid”……..hmmm. 

[Mark111R]

Happy to help. 

Numbers aren't the answer to everything, but I feel like it does help with interpretation and clarity for cone calls. 

Proper understanding of how to work course well is also important - as is radio etiquette. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Mark111R

[CMarkmann]

19 minutes ago, smeyers said:

Mark, in all seriousness, I’d like you to discuss these ideas with Lance and Jason B. We often do not have experienced people at some key positions. Sounds very simple, what could possibly go wrong?
 
“Would not matter where cars grid”……..hmmm. 

Addition to my prior post; currently run group assignments are assigned through the grid number stuck to the entrants car. Now... we are expecting people to know which group they're in, as well as for grid to know they belong there or not without just looking at their windshield. 

Possible solution is to have grid carry a copy of run group listing with entrant numbers to audit who is there before sending them to starter. This would be the primary checkpoint to keep a "bad" number from getting to timing in the incorrect run group.

 

[Mark111R]

9 minutes ago, CMarkmann said:

Addition to my prior post; currently run group assignments are assigned through the grid number stuck to the entrants car. Now... we are expecting people to know which group they're in, as well as for grid to know they belong there or not without just looking at their windshield. 

Possible solution is to have grid carry a copy of run group listing with entrant numbers to audit who is there before sending them to starter. This would be the primary checkpoint to keep a "bad" number from getting to timing in the incorrect run group.

 

We can still give grid spots in check-in as always. It can be set up so nothing is changed other than an additional column in MSR/timing with driver class and number. Numbers on the car just helps with penalty calls. If assigned grid spots are helpful, there's nothing requiring that to change. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Mark111R

[smeyers]

49 minutes ago, Mark111R said:

Happy to help. 

Numbers aren't the answer to everything, but I feel like it does help with interpretation and clarity for cone calls. 

Proper understanding of how to work course well is also important - as is radio etiquette. 

Totally and completely agree with this.

I’d like to see numbers, but the process would need to be very simple and foolproof. Work course procedures need more work/training for all. Gotten sloppy.

[Nokones]

I think the cone waving started after smoke signals were no longer viable because they took too long to start a signal, and before the invention of two-way radios? Although, I could be mistaken!

[Dustin]

😃

[Nokones]

[Zuko305]

Pathetic little numbers, so precise and whatnot. Go big and ugly or go home. 

 

[fahrvergnugen]

I think people are over thinking what I meant about large numbers..... or assuming what car numbers mean in other venues/events. 

Each car does not need a SPECIFIC number assigned, that was tried in the past and has lots of issues.  But...

I'm talking about having a set of car numbers made up on magnetic material that are reused in each group.  Numbers 1-40.  They go on your car matching your grid number.  They come off at the end of your run group and go to the next run group.  No record keeping required.

They do not need to be seen across the whole parking lot by the observers, it is for the course workers to call out the numbers instead of something like, "the blue car hit a cone" which is another issue..... not everybody knows all the possible makes/models of cars out there.  Mistakes in car identity confuse timing trying to figure out what the course worker meant.  I have even heard mistakes in car make/model identification from the observers.

The only wrinkles are fiberglass cars (which can use blue painter's tape to affix the car numbers) and a few two driver cars in the same run group (but I think people should be able to switch car numbers without much thinking).

I'm thinking we try the concept in a simple manner.... make up some printed numbers on card stock and use blue painters tape to affix them for one run group (maybe the one with the most Miatas....😀) and see how it works.  I'll get the numbers made at my expense to try it out.

[fahrvergnugen]

14 hours ago, Mark111R said:

The SCCA rule book specifies contrasting colors and minimum sizes for numbers and class letters. You can throw magnet numbers on the floor or trunk. You can store static cling numbers in a plastic notepad holder.

Gibb's Rule #83... what does the SCCA rule book have to do with regional events?...😀

Contrasting color, size, etc...... Black numbers on a white background circle or square works with any car color.  Might ruin the look of your custom graphics, but it is still readable.  The rule from SCCA is that car number be at least 8 inches high and 1.25 stroke.  Well, if I print a 700 pt bold number of legal size paper it comes out 7-inches high and 1-3/16 stroke.  Looks pretty easy to read from some distance.

Like I said, don't over think what is needed...

solo_car_number.pdf

[SSLance]

19 hours ago, Mark111R said:

We can still give grid spots in check-in as always. It can be set up so nothing is changed other than an additional column in MSR/timing with driver class and number. Numbers on the car just helps with penalty calls. If assigned grid spots are helpful, there's nothing requiring that to change. 

I will double check with Jason Bucki but I believe the test he did with our setup last year was just as you describe. Everything stays the same just adding a car # column to the registration.  

I also agree that adding car #s won't help or fix anything at all if we also do not correct the radio, course worker, or T&S tent noise issues which can all be done without adding the additional work of adding car #s.

I'll try to get the number of new drivers we had at the last event before the meeting tomorrow night, but I know this...it's a LOT.  It's a good thing to have so many new people joining the Region and attending our events but at the same time it also means they need a bit of time to get up to speed with how our events run.

An unintended consequence of Registration gridding cars by class in each group (which I've been doing the past couple of events) is that all of the CS Miatas are now on course at the same time.  I like gridding the cars by class as it puts drivers in and around the other drivers in their class both for fairness and bench racing chatter between runs...curious how many others have realized this was happening and do you like it or don't care either way?  

 

 

 

[Mark111R]

18 hours ago, fahrvergnugen said:

I think people are over thinking what I meant about large numbers..... or assuming what car numbers mean in other venues/events. 

Each car does not need a SPECIFIC number assigned, that was tried in the past and has lots of issues.  But...

I'm talking about having a set of car numbers made up on magnetic material that are reused in each group.  Numbers 1-40.  They go on your car matching your grid number.  They come off at the end of your run group and go to the next run group.  No record keeping required.

They do not need to be seen across the whole parking lot by the observers, it is for the course workers to call out the numbers instead of something like, "the blue car hit a cone" which is another issue..... not everybody knows all the possible makes/models 

I'm thinking we try the concept in a simple manner.... make up some printed numbers on card stock and use blue painters tape to affix them for one run group (maybe the one with the most Miatas....😀) and see how it works.  I'll get the numbers made at my expense to try it out.

Please no. 

Flashbacks to this PCA event at Pennsylvania 

[smeyers]

I been thinking about this, and have decided that we just allow too many Miatas. So, simple solution…….Just ban Miatas and we’ll be just fine.😂 No numbers needed.

I mean, just how many Corrados have you ever seen at an autocross, anyway?😉

[Zuko305]

21 hours ago, fahrvergnugen said:

I think people are over thinking...

and this is often the root of poor decisions, especially when its akin to a solution looking for a problem, LOL. What is the actual inaccuracy %? What is the baseline and how can we improve using only anecdotal data?

Will training, radio use, and some instructional behavior changes improve the accuracy w/o adding the complexity of numbers? Numbers won't solve missed downed cones or cones not called in within a timely & accurate manner because of inattentiveness. Training can be accomplished during cone clinics, novice walks, and during the drivers meeting. 

Perhaps we invest in some upgraded technologies to ease operations and improve accuracy, while still being flexible enough to take a hit without breaking. 

Edited September 28, 2023 by Zuko305
missed a period.

[smeyers]

Will training, radio use, and some instructional behavior changes improve the accuracy w/o adding the complexity of numbers? Numbers won't solve missed downed cones or cones not called in within a timely & accurate manner because of inattentiveness. Training can be accomplished during cone clinics, novice walks, and during the drivers meeting. 
 

Yep…..simplest is always better, especially when it comes to involving a group of relatively inexperienced workers who only lack knowledge and practice. More complexity isn’t usually the answer.

Better radio work here would help a bunch, followed by quick “cone over head” a close second. Observers are keyed into one car through the entire run, so the visual confirmation of a cone or no-cone would solve most issues. Always has.

[fahrvergnugen]

Here's my test number on the side of my car from about 100 feet away.  It's hard to show visibility with a picture because the focal length of the menses does not match the human eye.  I could actually read the number well up to about 150 feet in person.

While training about proper radio use, cone display, etc will improve things, it cannot solve the fundamental issue of properly recognizing the make/model of the cars we have coming out.  Some are real obvious by their color alone, like the lime green Dodge Challenger.  I have been doing this since 1963 and there is always something new that shows up.  I doubt that very few people would know what a VW Corrado is.... 😀   The problem gets worse when every car is the same color.

And then we have the occasional person who is not ready and runs out of order.  With up to 3 cars on course at 15 seconds apart it comes at you pretty fast and these moments of confusion lead to a number of missed penalties or times.   In groups A & C which I ran/worked we had several such incidents.  One case was even giving somebody a rerun for a downed cone, but he didn't actually stop at the cone as is required to get a rerun.

As a side note, not having the correct timing sheets printed out for Group C really added a level of chaos, as well.