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So how about some of you in the top 25 raw time...


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post some videos up with data so the rest of us chumps can figure out what we were doing wrong?   😀

Here's my 52.474...   Only thing I can figure is it must have been mph thru the long slalom.  A few mph difference all the way thru made a huge amount of time up. 

 

 

 

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Not top 25 raw but, you are right about the slalom as it doesnt look as tight as I've normally seen you take them in some of the other videos I've seen of your runs.

For me it was some of the pinchy parts of the course that I couldnt keep it tight where I lost time. As soon as I would give it a little bit of throttle, the car would push out wide.

 

Edited by freakin_elrod
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No data, but here's the far from perfect run I sat on. It was a challenging course that required aggression in placement/direction changes and lots of patience to not add distance.

Aggressive braking to maximize front grip definitely helped shorten turns and Lance, I'd suspect that's where CAM and older non-ABS cars lost some time. Dennis being the exception with an impressive time.

 

 

Edited by BPeters
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Thanks Sid and Brian, I think you are both correct.  The run I posted the video of was 1 second slower than my 2nd and 3rd runs which were both dirty, so I had to use a bit more caution.  Brian killed it in the slalom and I could definitely see the extra speed and aggression in the braking zones as well.  I was trying to carry as much speed as I could in slalom without getting behind and it's tough when it's imperative that you don't cone out.  Even that 1 second faster run would have only moved me up to about 28th raw time where I'm typically 15-20th.  I guess it just wasn't a course for me and my ride.  Still fun trying though.

 

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Lance, this is more for you than anyone else that has posted yet. It's great that this topic of "how can I get better" has come up and it seems that some people are willing to take advise. My quest of getting better has been through most of this year and it's actually a tricky thing to learn where time is being lost. I am no means a Brian or a Doug, but fell that I am a decent driver, so that's my disclaimer.

Now here is the big question. How serious do you really want to take the art of cone kung fu? I would stew on it for a little while because it's not an easy thing to just know where you stand. Me personally, at least one course walk I keep away from as many people as I can, especially talky groups. During the runs I am running through the course in my head at least twice before each run. Right after a run I take a slow mental rewind of that run to review in as much detail as I can looking for time to gain as well as time lost. I'm not great at it but I'm getting better. Basically for the course walk and during my runs, I am trying to take this quite seriously.

I don't have a YouTube channel yet but I will get one up and post with a link for my best run, which was a 50.302. I have some rough time deltas as well when I did a side by side of Brian's best run that I can post as well. We are still tweaking the car a little after the changes made, so the car is a little loose for me right now. I have also been working on line choice as well as slalom techniques, so I was giving up some time coming into the slalom so that I could practice back siding each cone.

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Here is my 4th run. For both Lance and Sid, I think you where a little late through the slalom, as in not back siding the cones enough. This in the first event where it clicked regarding back siding the slalom cones. I think that I back sided them a little too much to be fast, but that was my intention to break a bad habit.

As for some time deltas for this run vs Brian. Now these are rough times through video editing, but are useful enough.

  1. Start to first cone into left sweeper, 0:09 in video, I am 0.5sec behind so far. 
    • Power is my best guess here.
  2. Through the sweeper up to the left cone towards the end, 0:13 in video, I am 0.27sec faster. Now I am only 0.22sec behind.
  3. Down the short straight up to the gate before the turn in into station 2, 0:16 in video, I loose 0.02sec. Now I am 0.24sec behind.
    • Some is power related some is distance added by not being on the cone.
  4. Through the braking and right into station 2 up to the gate in front of station 2, 0:18 in video, I gain back 0.19sec. Now I am 0.05sec behind.
  5. Through the right and into the slalom at the first left cone in the slalom, 0:23 in video, I loose 0.08sec. Now I'm running 0.12sec back.
    • Probably being hesitant into the right that leads into the slalom.
  6. Through the slalom and up to the last of the triple cone, 0:28 in video, I loose 0.25sec. Now I am out to 0.37sec back.
    • Car is a little loose and was practicing back siding each cone in the slalom. Probably a little too much back siding.
  7. Through the right sweeper and left up to the gate coming into station 5, 0:36 in video, I loose 0.42sec. Running 0.79sec behind.
    • Mostly braking a little early into this section
  8. Down the back kink past station 5 into the left into station 6, 0:41 in video, I gain 0.06sec. Now I am 0.73sec back.
  9. Through the long right sweeper up to the left cone at the end of station 7, 0:49 in video, I gain back 0.05sec. Now I am 0.68sec back.
  10. Through the right and left by station 7, 0:51 in video, I loose another 0.13sec. Now I am 0.81sec back.
    • This is line choice and adding distance.
  11. Finally up to the finish, 0:54 in video, I loose a massive 1.07sec. Now I am out to 1.88sec behind.
    • This is also adding distance because of the exit angle on the previous section. Power and running into the top of 2nd gear is also added time.

 

 

Sid

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Thanks for the insight Matt. Definitely later on backsiding cones, and like Lance I ended up being conservative as I ended up coning in the slaloms both Saturday and Sunday. I'm still trying to learn more patience in some of the other course features where you often have to give up more for better return but I tend to forget some of the fundamentals in the heat of the moment.

One thing I will add though is surface temps do matter. 46 degrees ambient in A group will not produce the same results 80 degree temps from C and D. 

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Thanks Matt!  Certainly helps to hear how other's attack a course to find time.  A lot of really experienced racers like to say you need to be fast in the fast parts...  This is what I'm currently working on.  I've made a few changes to the car recently and they allow me to do things that I couldn't do with it before.  Now I'm just trying to figure out how to do that things faster...  😄  

 

BTW, I really love having Solostorm logging in my car during runs and we now have 3 of us comparing solostorm runs after races to see who went faster and where.  It would certainly help more if we could do it in between runs but that is pretty difficult if not co-driving.  Mat, James and I can all upload our runs to a cloud, then download each others and compare one right over the other.  It's pretty cool...  

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I need to get a mount for my gopro. I think I do well on slalom but go too hot into the back corner and end up going wide. Need to tighten that up next time. I know I have a lot to learn but honestly don't feel I will ever be too competitive. I can't invest a lot into the car and am just trying to have fun with it. Cant drive like this on the street. lol 

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So there are a few tips that I have heard that seem to help me the most.

  1. Slow in, fast out. This is from a podcast from http://autocrosstalk.com/ with Brian, mostly. You can loose a lot more time overdriving into a corner than you can ever gain back. You want to be able to play with the gas by the "apex" of the corner. This will also help establish the line that you wanted to take for the course as well rather than saying oh crap and essentially leaving a section un-tested.
  2. Distance is usually your enemy. 
  3. Patience can be a useful ally. This goes with cutting distance. If your on the gas too hard too soon, you get pushed out wide and off line for the next element. Patience does not mean coast!! If you are using data logging, the G dot should never hang out in the middle.
  4. Every corner should feel just a little sketchy (for now). I don't know if this is true for Brian, maybe he will chime in, but I think there should always be just a little bit of balancing the car with every corner. Your not really catching the car, its just before that. So in Brian's video around 22 seconds in and in my video around 18 seconds in are good examples, a little bit of counter steering but that's it. In my video around 22 seconds in that was a little too much power, so there was a lift.
  5. Mentally review early and often. Run the course in your head while heading over to do another course walk. Run the course in your head before each run. Run/review the course in your head right after your run. Take notes if you need to. Where were you looking? Did you get behind instead of looking ahead? Were you ever coasting, or did it ever feel like just canyon driving? Did you almost spin anywhere? Where were the tires just starting to talk a little? This takes time to learn!! Good practice will lead to this becoming easier. For example, immediately after the run posted, I knew that I added too much distance just before the finish. 
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This is a question more focused to Sid and Scott, just because they are the FWD boys here so far. We can come back to the RWD gang soon, but a lot will apply to everyone.

Just because this is a fun and never ending story, plus it's a good thread for others to look at and learn from. For both Sid and Scott, as well as other that want to jump in a little, when you review your videos (all of them) can you see where there was time that you lost? Now, after seeing your own video, can you recall more about those particular sections on those particular runs?

Now for the participation points section. From the videos that you posted, just because we can all see them, pick two things that you think could have improved your times for the day. Things that you can bring to the next event to practice. Now these two things don't have to be a corner or a particular section, they can be over arching things like line choice or even being hungry (seriously). The goal here is to focus down a lot of things to gain practice with purpose.

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1 hour ago, Matt U said:

This is a question more focused to Sid and Scott, just because they are the FWD boys here so far. We can come back to the RWD gang soon, but a lot will apply to everyone.

Just because this is a fun and never ending story, plus it's a good thread for others to look at and learn from. For both Sid and Scott, as well as other that want to jump in a little, when you review your videos (all of them) can you see where there was time that you lost? Now, after seeing your own video, can you recall more about those particular sections on those particular runs?

Now for the participation points section. From the videos that you posted, just because we can all see them, pick two things that you think could have improved your times for the day. Things that you can bring to the next event to practice. Now these two things don't have to be a corner or a particular section, they can be over arching things like line choice or even being hungry (seriously). The goal here is to focus down a lot of things to gain practice with purpose.

Yup I know exactly were I lose time each time I watch my videos. For that particular event, I wanted to make up time in the slaloms. While I was behind a bit, my runs prior to that were way off. Me, I'm slow, so I can only focus (no pun towards the shit box intended) on correcting a few errors at a time otherwise I end up in a mess of FWD drift stupidity. 

Distance is a killer for me especially on that day. Not including the slalom, but the pinchy parts and slight transition over the little crest by the sound station, I should have been way closer like you and Brian were. A lot of my going wide was either due to:

a). carrying to much speed on entry

b). getting on the throttle too soon

 Patience is another one of my downfalls especially at this event. For the slower portions of the course I didn't necessarily coast, but I wasn't tidy, and I didn't apply the power correctly as you can see where I push wide, or would come in too hot which would mess up my setup for the next feature.

Its a constant learning process (or in my case, a reminder of the importance of fundamentals), and consistency is one thing that I would like to improve above all else as I do have my light bulb moments were it all clicks, but more often then not I'm just a bone head.

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It's tough to tell from the vid but I think you entered a couple corners tight so you couldn't get on the throttle as early for an upcoming faster section. 

I tried to stay pretty far right before crossing the the west side of the lot. (1st pic from your vid) To me, that west-bound section was reasonably fast. Setting up on the outside helped me apply throttle early for a fast section. 

Then there were the two cones on your left before the finish. (2nd pic) You appeared to be on the throttle late around/after that left hander. Again, I tried to stay far to the right before that 2-cone left hander so I could almost backside the 2nd cone and get on the throttle early toward the finish. 

Screenshot_20201121-185106_Chrome.jpg

Screenshot_20201121-185120_Chrome.jpg

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So I learned a pretty important lesson this past weekend about distance traveled and related elapsed time and I thought I'd share it with the class.  Mat Leon and I both ran GoodGuys Autocross and we both were data logging with Solostorm.  Yesterday we shared logs with each other and did some comparing.  The two logs compared below are my 42.3xx I ran on Friday and Mat's 42.4xx he ran on Sunday I believe, same course.   Please disregard the total elapsed times on the logs as they are incorrect, I think we have our start and stop triggers configured differently.  What is more important are the individual sector data points.

 

Screenshot_20201123-154019_SoloStorm.jpg

 

Here is sector 2 right after the start, notice they are pretty close between us on just about everything.

 

Screenshot_20201123-154039_SoloStorm.jpg 

 

Sector 3 shows Mat traveled 7 feet less with both of us averaging 28.6ish mph...and he picked up 0.25 seconds on me.

Screenshot_20201123-154045_SoloStorm.jpg

 

Sector 4 was pretty similar as was sector 5.

Screenshot_20201123-154049_SoloStorm.jpg

Screenshot_20201123-154102_SoloStorm.jpg

Sector 6 got pretty interesting though.  Lance traveled 27 feet less and gained 3 tenths of a second.

Screenshot_20201123-154116_SoloStorm.jpg

 

Sector 7 was a huge jump though.  Mat traveled 47 feet less distance at roughly the same average speed and [b]picked up 1.271 seconds on me!![/b]

Screenshot_20201123-154121_SoloStorm.jpg

 

I returned the favor in sector 8 though.  33 feet less and picked up 0.973 seconds.

Screenshot_20201123-154129_SoloStorm.jpg

 

Then he gained back in sector 9 by traveling another 33 feet less and picking up 0.622 seconds.

Screenshot_20201123-154134_SoloStorm.jpg

 

I haven't done the math yet...but just imagine the time we would have saved if one of us had hit all of those sectors as tight as each of us did separately!  I'm guessing what, 4 seconds quicker at least.  No wonder we were so far behind some similar cars...  I always knew distance traveled was important but this really brought it to light to me.  Hopefully this helps some others in this area as well.  I know I'll concentrate much harder in the future on limiting the distance traveled while on course. 

 

Hopefully this also shows some just how helpful data logging can be, anyone running Solostorm can upload logs for others than ran the same course to download so they can compare and learn from as well.

 

   

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That’s a great write up lance. It was definitely informative looking at it. Maybe at goodguys we can do this during the day between runs even if we just set the tablets side by side. I can definitely see where I screwed up and just couldn’t link a good run. Also watching some of the fast guys thinking the run looked slow but was in the 37-38 range. Being smooth on the gas/brake as well as steering helps to not upset the car, which is easy for me to do. I need to get rid of the “gangster lean” on my car since as cool as it looks, it’s not helping me. 

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On 11/21/2020 at 2:43 PM, freakin_elrod said:

Yup I know exactly were I lose time each time I watch my videos. For that particular event, I wanted to make up time in the slaloms. While I was behind a bit, my runs prior to that were way off. Me, I'm slow, so I can only focus (no pun towards the shit box intended) on correcting a few errors at a time otherwise I end up in a mess of FWD drift stupidity. 

Distance is a killer for me especially on that day. Not including the slalom, but the pinchy parts and slight transition over the little crest by the sound station, I should have been way closer like you and Brian were. A lot of my going wide was either due to:

a). carrying to much speed on entry

b). getting on the throttle too soon

 Patience is another one of my downfalls especially at this event. For the slower portions of the course I didn't necessarily coast, but I wasn't tidy, and I didn't apply the power correctly as you can see where I push wide, or would come in too hot which would mess up my setup for the next feature.

Its a constant learning process (or in my case, a reminder of the importance of fundamentals), and consistency is one thing that I would like to improve above all else as I do have my light bulb moments were it all clicks, but more often then not I'm just a bone head.

So I got a little busy and couldn't get back around to this topic, and now there are even more people chiming in. It is a good thing that more people are chiming in, but I fear that some of my intent may get a little lost, so bear with me here.

As Sid was the only one that posted 2 thing that he would want to work on after reviewing his own video/memory, I'm going to expand from that quote as well as drag a few others in. Lance and Mat, you will be referenced here well...

Okay, here we go........

So the fundamental reason why I had said to pick two things that you noticed about your own driving has the side effect of being a faster driver, but that is not the primary reason. While looking at something like SoloStorm or Harry's Lap Timer is a great tool, it has it's limitations, especially between autocross runs (thinking of Mat and Lance). The primary reason that I said to pick 2 things that you can go back and see within yourself is to develop/hone the skill of detailed recollection. I cannot stress this skill enough. If you can only remember that you over-drove into a section 3 out of 4 runs on Tuesday, it doesn't help you. When you look at data analysis or videos, but still have a hard time remembering that portion of that run, it doesn't help you. If someone tells you that your line choice is off, but can only see it on video and can't recall it, it doesn't help you. See a pattern here. The best advice is worthless if you can recall it and repeat it in a meaningful way.

Videos and data can help you recall certain aspects of your runs. I use video to do things like double check that I was looking where I wanted to and not getting behind. More recently I have stopped using data analysis for the most part, as I would spend way too much time seeing what the data could tell me, but for some reason it never told me that I wasn't looking ahead enough. Such is the way of analysis paralysis. Data analysis in the grid can be a wicked crutch if your not careful. My opinion on the matter is that it should be predominantly a double check for yourself.

Now one thing that you may have noticed is that I haven't said anything about line choice, car control, or even where someone like Sid or Lance was looking in the videos that they posted. Fun fact, I won't while on this topic. This topic is all about the idea of practice with purpose, that is where the detailed recollection comes in. SOOO, lets get into the post that Sid is quoted in as an example. His 2 items were carrying too much speed and getting on the throttle too early. Now I am not going to say he is right or wrong in his analysis, because it doesn't matter if he can't recall what he did and where it was on course. This is where practicing with purpose comes in to play. Since there is another AMP event coming up, it's time to get a game plan. At Sid's next event, he should do his course walks with the intent on finding a section or two that can facilitate that practice with purpose. 

For the first issue, carrying too much speed into a section, he will need to look for a section or two that have maybe a 180deg corner after a reasonably fast section. Now once a piece of the course has been picked, it is his job to run the course as normal(ish), but immediately recall just that section once he comes back to grid. Things like car angle coming in, where was he looking on the way in, how did the tire grip feel, was the car starting to drift or plow, etc. Now if you come up with something like "I was looking straight ahead when I entered and the car plowed out wide," you can move forward from there. A correction might be as simple as reminding yourself to look where you want to go, not where you are going. I would advise not doing something like actively trying to think about what you are going to change while your driving, do it before your run, when you are reviewing the course in your head before your run. This is how the fastest drivers out here shave a little time off run after run.

As this recollection becomes easier, you can slowly add more sections of the course. Take it easy at first if you have never tried this as it can be overwhelming, and we want to form helpful habits. Keep one thing in mind, people like Brian, Doug, or Jeff (he's new here) are not coming out to these events to just throw down a fast time and leave. They have things that they want to practice, specifically, every event. Sometimes they need to practice the same thing for 3 events in a row.

Practicing with purpose is sort of like building with lego's. Everything is build one brick at a time and each brick needs the previous brick to base its self on. But every once in a while you'll find that hidden piece, in the carpet, in the dark, at like 3am, that leads to a sore wrist and a skinned knee. Otherwise known as a bad habit...

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