Maybe We Need Large Car Numbers?

[fahrvergnugen]

Today's event had a really difficult situation in Group C..... 12 Miatas!....😗

If you were working course, timing, observing or announcing it was really difficult determining who's running and who got a penalty if Miatas only come in three colors.... red, white, black.  The net result may be that they don't get the proper time of penalty assigned.  Even worse if somebody runs out of order or gets a rerun.  This confusion also rolled over into the non-Miata entries if we lost track of how many Miatas should have past between them.  It was a real challenge.

If we were running only one or two cars on course at a time it could be manageable.  But 3 or 4 can be coming at you every 15 seconds.

Maybe, we should have a batch of large magnetic car numbers available to stick on the side of each car in a run group?   Corvettes can be tricky with fiberglass bodies, but a little blue painter's tape would do the trick for them.

Decades ago we went through a period when everybody had their own car number assigned.  Was not really easy to deal with, but it did eliminate this kind of confusion for those officiating the timing and scoring.

[smeyers]

I Observed that same Group, and a few things made it difficult to score correctly. I think numbers too problematic to facilitate (as well as the distances involved), but workers not following worker protocols made scoring tough.

When working, and a car hits a cone, you run out, hold the cone over your head briefly, and then replace it (VERY important). That quite often was not happening. They would run over to the spot, shuffle stuff around, and then return to their station. Sometimes there was not even a cone call on the radio.

If the cone was moved, but still in the box, replace it correctly, and do the arm wave “all clear” signal. Again, was not happening.

But ESPECIALLY, a very social group gathered right behind us at the timing tent seeking shade, and you guys got loud. Hard to hear for Glenda on the radio, or us hear Glenda.

There must be no one hanging out by timing. Period. Many of us care a lot about accurate scoring, and we do our best to provide that, but these two issues made that very hard, as Mark shared.

Please?

Thanks.😎

[Mark111R]

Just a suggestion to keep the radio clear too. As a starter, I felt bad clogging up the Cone calls with having to call out every car number because there aren't any visible numbers on the car. 

Maybe consider a separate channel between start and timing? 

The main issue is lax course working. Need to emphasize watching cones, not cars. Even as a starter, I saw many cones get missed... then called in late on the wrong car. Experienced radio folks that aren't afraid to coach the other - possibly less experienced - course workers. 

 

 

 

This is the first region I've run at with no numbers. No numbers makes it easy for local/casual/new competitors, but it makes it harder for everyone else. Harder to track penalties, harder to track start order. Takes 4 observer slots that could've been 4 additional course workers and/or a dedicated heat safety steward. 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Mark111R

[Andy]

1 hour ago, Mark111R said:

Just a suggestion to keep the radio clear too. As a starter, I felt bad clogging up the Cone calls with having to call out every car number because there aren't any visible numbers on the car. 

Maybe consider a separate channel between start and timing? 

The main issue is lax course working. Need to emphasize watching cones, not cars. Even as a starter, I saw many cones get missed... then called in late on the wrong car. Experienced radio folks that aren't afraid to coach the other - possibly less experienced - course workers. 

 

 

 

This is the first region I've run at with no numbers. No numbers makes it easy for local/casual/new competitors, but it makes it harder for everyone else. Harder to track penalties, harder to track start order. Takes 4 observer slots that could've been 4 additional course workers and/or a dedicated heat safety steward. 

I also noticed down cones on a couple of my runs that I had to work around. Still had a great time and don't want to "complain" but with all being said it might need to be addressed as course should always be the same for all runs. 

[Kim Kemper]

there is a dedicated safety steward for each heat but they are not responsible for cone count 

[Mark111R]

Wasn't implying they'd be responsible for anything on course (other than safety). It's probably because I'm new to the region, but I can't tell who the safety is. Something like the HotDog truck driving through grid while cars were coming off course on the same lane is an example.

[Kim Kemper]

SSSs are announced at the drivers meeting 

[SSLance]

For a while registration assigned "Corner Captains" who were more experienced racers and were in charge of the radio and cone calls for each station per run Group as a way to clean up the radio chatter and more accurately report cone calls.  I personally liked the idea but there was pushback so eventually we stopped that practice.  Maybe time to rethink that? 

We've also extensively discussed going to large #s on cars in the past and once the details of what all would have to be changed with our systems to accomplish this, the decision was made by the steering committee to not go that direction.  One may think it is simple fix for one issue, but in reality it changes just about everything we do with our registration and timing & scoring systems and then on top of that requires everyone to now put tape or magnetic #s on their cars every event...correctly.  

In my opinion, the current system works very well for us.  We just need to be better and course work, clean up the radio chatter and remind people to stay away from timing and scoring area.  

[jw1]

Everything Lance said, but especially this:    

Quote

In my opinion, the current system works very well for us.  We just need to be better and course work, clean up the radio chatter and remind people to stay away from timing and scoring area.  

 

[scrubnick]

My two thoughts:

1: There are too many Miatas. I know they're fast, but get something different.

2: The concept of a Corner Captain makes a ton of sense. When I first came out to these events, I was really surprised that there weren't any. If you have a group of relatively new people, of course you aren't going to get things called properly. The Cone School at the start of the day is good, but it doesn't really clarify the radio part.

[smeyers]

Lance and “Scrubnick” (?) pretty much nailed it. Seeing numbers on a car from the timing tent to the far side would be a real challenge anyway.

And the logistics of maintaining all of those numbers for metal and plastic cars would likely require another full crew. And more storage.

Improve the efficiency of what we already do is the easiest and most practical solution.

[Rigby]

9 hours ago, smeyers said:

I Observed that same Group, and a few things made it difficult to score correctly. I think numbers too problematic to facilitate (as well as the distances involved), but workers not following worker protocols made scoring tough.

When working, and a car hits a cone, you run out, hold the cone over your head briefly, and then replace it (VERY important). That quite often was not happening. They would run over to the spot, shuffle stuff around, and then return to their station. Sometimes there was not even a cone call on the radio.

If the cone was moved, but still in the box, replace it correctly, and do the arm wave “all clear” signal. Again, was not happening.

But ESPECIALLY, a very social group gathered right behind us at the timing tent seeking shade, and you guys got loud. Hard to hear for Glenda on the radio, or us hear Glenda.

There must be no one hanging out by timing. Period. Many of us care a lot about accurate scoring, and we do our best to provide that, but these two issues made that very hard, as Mark shared.

Please?

Thanks.😎

Holding the cone helps soooo much for the Spoters at timing incase the callout is missed, couldn't be determined, equipment/tech issues, etc.

I was out at Station 3 during D-Group and nobody seemed to hear our callouts. I told the others with me to hold the cone over there head briefly if its out of the box, as its good practice and  since we could not radio in(but we could hear everyone just fine). Found out later that if I stood further down towards the timing, I was getting confirmation on our calls.
 

[Nokones]

If the Region ever decides to host a National Event, numbers on the cars is a mandatory requirement, per the Solo rules. Cars with non-metallic body panels is not an issue, there are static-cling vinyl or sticky numbers and letters that resolves that problem.

[smeyers]

If we ever host a National Event, the DRIVERS must register for and then provide their own numbers. Not the Region. Same system not feasible for local events with

multiple classes in multiple run groups. If that's where you were going with this.😉

[Zuko305]

1) Workers should spread out when assigned to a station, not all huddled together. This reduces response times to downed cones & minimizes distractions. 

2) Workers should watch closely the rear of the vehicle as often times they are watching the front of the car as it passes them and miss the downed cone. 

3) Clipping the mic results in missed messages; hold then speak. In the moment, this is often forgotten. 

4) As others have said, raising a cone briefly above the head is a great secondary notifier, same with the crossed arm over the head indicating no cone fault. 

5) T & S should be familiar with worker stations #'s and workers with workers referencing those numbers; Station 3, Blue Miata, 1 Cone (for example). 

6) Equipment will talk with the other Chiefs and see what mgt can do to reduce distractions at T&S, as this has been a distraction for a long time. Is it for the shade, the curiosity to figure out up to the minute PAX factors, old habits, seeking help / information? 

7) There may be technology-centric approaches which can better support operational efficiency; barcode scanning is one that comes to mind, like at a national event. Maybe RFID, transponders, or maybe something as crazy as AI use combined with photographic tech (the later one is a far stretch, but open to ideas). 

8 - Autocrossers seem superstitious and if one doesn't get their number - you'd think the world has ended, it causes a lot of drama. No numbers. 

[Nokones]

In my opinion, standing and raising the cone over your head exposes the cone chaser to danger longer as the next car is approaching. The course worker shouldn't be lolly-gagging just to get someone's attention that he/she is replacing a down cone. That course worker shouldn't need to worry about if that cone was counted or not. The only thing the cone chaser needs to worry about where is the next car and if it is safe to get that cone back in the square safely. It's someone else's job to account for the displaced cone. The cone chaser should never waste any time to replace the down cone.

It's the corner station radio operator's responsibility to report the displaced cone and the observer's responsibility to relay the report to the timing person.

Standing and raising the cone to get someone's attention will get you killed in a heartbeat. This practice needs to stop.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Nokones

[smeyers]

For a long time, (over 40 years) especially for local events, we’ve always used the “raise the cone above your head” for corner workers to make sure the cone gets counted. The Solo Safety Stewards monitor the launch times between cars to ensure adequate and safe cone replacement times.

This is typically 25 seconds. Plenty of time to hustle out, signal and replace the cone, and hustle back to the station. Or wave your arms in front of you signaling no penalty.

The corner worker does not need timing to wave back.😉 But it visually confirms the penalty. With a very wide range of inexperience within our worker corps this is necessary. 

That is the corner workers job. Not someone else's. This does not need to stop, just needs to be done correctly. Very effective.

The Experienced Corner Captain working the radio is an excellent idea, but more work for Lance, as he’s got to know the more experienced individuals.
 

 

[Mark111R]

13 hours ago, smeyers said:

If we ever host a National Event, the DRIVERS must register for and then provide their own numbers. Not the Region. Same system not feasible for local events with multiple classes in multiple run groups. If that's where you were going with this.😉

Almost every other region and club in the country requires numbers. Static cling, magnet, vinyl, painter's tape, paper. This isn't some unreasonable requirement. 

Also to your other point about numbers being hard to read from the tent... that's not the point. The point is for corner radio workers to be able to see the number and call the cone by number rather than "gray miata - no the other gray miata".

Edited September 26, 2023 by Mark111R

[Mark111R]

2 hours ago, Nokones said:

In my opinion, standing and raising the cone over your head exposes the cone chaser to danger longer as the next car is approaching.

Standing and raising the cone to get someone's attention will get you killed in a heartbeat. This practice needs to stop.

This is standard practice at almost every SCCA event including local and national events. It will only get you killed if you're slowly walking to cones and not paying attention to incoming cars. Course workers should be running for cones and maintaining awareness of approaching cars. Obviously, if a car is getting close - you don't sit there and wave the cone around. There is plenty of time to raise the cone above your head for 1 second when running to a cone, retrieving it, and placing it back in the box. Most of the time, the cone is far enough from the box that it doesn't even take additional time to raise the cone while you run back to the box. 

[CMarkmann]

14 hours ago, smeyers said:

If we ever host a National Event, the DRIVERS must register for and then provide their own numbers. Not the Region. Same system not feasible for local events with

multiple classes in multiple run groups. If that's where you were going with this.😉

Disagree with this not being feasible for a local region. San Diego region had a successful system for this where you registered your regional competition number annually (with a fee to have your Solo Card and ownership of that number). The SCCA magazine (which we should all be receiving with our memberships) has advertisements in the back for multiple vendors supplying numbers that fill this need. 

If people are spending $1000/year on tires, it's not a huge ask to improve the running of the event to have somebody spend $60 on numbers. Roll the annual number registration in with annual tech. For newer entrants, temporary 4 digit numbers were assigned and the paper + painters tape method was required. Eventually, they decide that they want to "look the part" at the events and buy numbers as well. This seems to come up every few years, and I haven't understood the pushback to improvement, other than just being resistant to change.

[scrubnick]

The issue with people hanging out at timing and scoring is probably shade. It was rather hot this past Sunday and most people can't bring shade with them in their track cars. It would be great if we had an extra shaded area for people to hang out and watch.

[freakin_elrod]

39 minutes ago, CMarkmann said:

Disagree with this not being feasible for a local region. San Diego region had a successful system for this where you registered your regional competition number annually (with a fee to have your Solo Card and ownership of that number). The SCCA magazine (which we should all be receiving with our memberships) has advertisements in the back for multiple vendors supplying numbers that fill this need. 

If people are spending $1000/year on tires, it's not a huge ask to improve the running of the event to have somebody spend $60 on numbers. Roll the annual number registration in with annual tech. For newer entrants, temporary 4 digit numbers were assigned and the paper + painters tape method was required. Eventually, they decide that they want to "look the part" at the events and buy numbers as well. This seems to come up every few years, and I haven't understood the pushback to improvement, other than just being resistant to change.

I originally started my auto-x journey in the San Diego region and I know the use of temp numbers/number ownership worked well in that much larger region than ours. This past April's event one of my competitors was  another black Focus ST and literally ran right behind me and if I didn't have my numbers, I could easily see things getting mixed up, let alone the plethora of "like" Miata's so I would agree with the need/use for numbers as well. I know that the current system works when it does and then there's instances like this past event when its a cluster...... If remember correctly, isn't our club from a financial stand point in an overage? The temporary numbers would be a drop in the bucket in terms of using up an expense. Also we've graduated to a medium region and have made some great leaps and bounds, this could be another one of those next steps into making this slightly better/efficient.......

Edited September 26, 2023 by freakin_elrod

[Zuko305]

30 minutes ago, scrubnick said:

The issue with people hanging out at timing and scoring is probably shade. It was rather hot this past Sunday and most people can't bring shade with them in their track cars. It would be great if we had an extra shaded area for people to hang out and watch.

I beg to differ on bringing shade, I counted no less than 10 “easy-up’s”spread about the paddock. 

That doesn’t mean a more permanent solution cannot be researched. In prior seasons there were several large tents located on the east side of the paddock near the guard rail. 
 

In reality there is no obligation for the club to provide shade. I for one really enjoy the “farmers tan” at the conclusion of the events.

[smeyers]

Want shade? Bring an umbrella. We do.

Sid, what color should those numbers be 🤔? And two sets, right, one magnetic and one “Corvette”?😉 How would those be stored?

Asking for a friend….😎

[smeyers]

Chris M……regarding buying our own numbers……right now we are using grid numbers as car numbers, so please extrapolate that into how individual numbers would be used for scoring and grid?

BTW, I still have my magnetics from when our Region 25 years ago tried assigning individual numbers to drivers. I know what numbers I want…😉